by Ernst Senkowski
back to TOC
G-39.2 F. JUERGENSON CONVERSING WITH R. HOLBE
We here talk about death, and we talk about dying,
but we mean life.
This talk of approx. 45 minutes took place as one of the RTL radio broadcasting series ĄUnglaubliche Geschichtenď (unbelievable stories); here excerpts of it are reproduced. JUERGENSONís cogitations are represented in more detail, the presenterís questions and remarks have been shortened. In deviation from the original sequence, the subjects have been bundled so as to give the general sense.
J Our ideas/conceptions are our enemies. If we do not get our ideas/conceptions clear in our mind, we will never be able to do something new. What is old disturbs the whole thing, what is new cannot make headway. Throughout my whole life I in fact have followed reality, have searched what is reality. And if one adopts this standpoint as the dominant theme of life: I want to know what is reality, who am I, how do I live, what is life, then one is open for everything new.
H You had wanted to record the singing of the birds, and then, suddenly, you heard mysterious interlocutors; over the years this increased, the quality improved, you became more familiar with each other. This would mean that the deceased live with you and are taking part?
J Certainly, (they take) intensively, absolutely part. It is the aim of a group of deceased, who already knew me in (their) lifetime, to continue working with the intention of building a bridge between here and there in order to make men attentive to their responsibility in the school of life, in a world menaced by the pollution of nature, and to pass to them the information that death is not the end, and to take away their fear of death.
H refers to the technical problems, and to the interpretation of the ill-defined signals on the magnetic tapes that frequently is given as one sees proper: You have spent years till you grasped what was going on?
J Eavesdropping is an art. It must be learnt, but it is a hard school. And the greatest hazard lies in wishful thinking and in fear. Wish and fear are the two faces of one coin. Therefore only perfectly clear, evident loud voices are acceptable. Everything else will only cause misunderstandings, quarrels and disappointments. I studied two years till I knew how the versed radio announcers, newsreaders speak, and how the deceased speak, and the difference is enormous.
The dead come in by themselves, they switch something on, something electromagnetic, through their devices, then comes absolute silence, and then they sing with their own voices, and the conversation between us runs freely, without disturbances/noises.
H There is no need for you to speak with them verbally, it is sufficient when you think, isnít it?
J Yes, but I speak with them nevertheless. The dead donít see us, and we donít see them either. Completely separate worlds. The deceased have this so-called radar, I donít know (if) it is electromagnetic, they can receive the feelings and the thoughts. They also get the information about the situations on our earth, they can explore the most concealed of the concealed. They need a mediator, an apparatus, a complicated computer structure, I donít want to speak to this.
Look, when a woman has lost her husband, a mother her child, and they love the deceased, the dead, and they have the ardent desire to know how they feel, then the answer comes. But if they deplore themselves, what most men do, their loneliness, their misery, then it is a purely egocentric longing for getting further consolation. In this case they are not at all interested in the fate of the dead.
H Thatís a human reaction though. I often hear it from surviving dependents who then bewail their husbands, their wives: Why did you leave me, why did you do that to me? Thatís self-pity.
J Death is a perfectly natural and absolutely necessary thing in the picture of creation of life.
back to TOP
H What importance have the cemeteries from your point of view?
J In life, most men quarrel. There is fighting everywhere, in matrimony, within the family, in society, at work, everywhere. And it is much liked to fall upon oneís next. After death he is ruled out, then he does not harm to anybody. Then we humans glorify the dead body, the waste, the ashes, thatís easy, it always has been like this. Exactly like with the politicians, they fight each other, after death they are saints. And therefore I would say that, in fact, the cemetery, properly speaking, is no more of importance.
H Because of your realization that life continues after death, funerals, actually, appear no more as such sad events as they are now. They are a bidding farewell, like for a person who is going to take its residence in an other part of the world, and of whom one knows that he/she will continue to live, but that one cannot see him/her any more.
J If you have a sister in Australia, and there are handicaps for you to fly there, then you can well have a conversation with her by telephone. You donít see her, but you hear her voice. You know this is my sisterís voice. With the dead it is alike. If you know your motherís voice and she addresses to you after her death and tells (you) all (the) intimacies, then you have not any thought of it that a dead is a corpse buried at the cemetery.
H Most men did not react at all to this message which is the greatest message proper that ever has reached mankind.
J It has always been like that. Anything that turns on manís personal matters, (that) he has to change, most people brush it aside, thatís inconvenient.
H Many people who listen to these broadcastings say they have fear afterwards. The prime fear is the fear of death. And now you come with the message, that also is a Christian message: There is a life after death.
J The fear of death actually is a fear of the unknown, perhaps inborn since millions of years. Out of ignorance and blindness we have degraded death to an ugly mower, and have cloaked it so that it has become something mystical. It is something completely different, a new beginning, an element of life; the old must end, for otherwise never something new can come to pass. The dignity of man is often misunderstood, it is exactly the same dignity that an animal has, a tree, and, if I may say so, all life is holy. If there is something holy, it is not what men build up, but that what is life, that immortal, that infinite, always anew creative, one canít define it.
H What is the sense of life?
J The task of life really is to (gradually) cut the I, the built-up, egocentric I, in order to arrive at the source of life, and this source of life is, what I will now have to say with a sentimental word, unfortunately, love. But not the love that we imagine in the sense of all these terms. So, life is love, energy, creative power, creativity. And this love, this life, this energy lives within us, buried under the I, a thousand imaginations, appetencies/yearnings, fears, worries, a whole complex. Our task is only to peel this off, until that what there is, emerges spontaneously.
Our world is a distorted, dull mirror of reality. In spite of the beautiful nature there is fighting everywhere. Look at it, a bird, it sings so beautifully, but it kills, it takes the sunís energy of a worm into itself, it must do it, otherwise it would die, and we do alike.
This dimension of life, this cumbrous three-dimensional world with time and space, with all its problems, this fighting for energy provision, is a hard troublesome struggle, and if we are able to solve it in an adequate manner, as far as is just necessary, not one hairís breadth more, then we can live in harmony in the presence and experience pleasure, creative pleasure.
H One presumption is that in the so-called Beyond space and time are annihilated. Time does not exist, and space does not exist.
J Nevertheless there is space, and nevertheless there also is time, the deceased surely need time to talk to us. And they travel, they undertake travels in time. When we travel to London, we travel in space, the deceased travel in time. They travel into the past, into a, as one could say, cosmic archive of reality. For there exists all what happens on earth, or anywhere in the cosmos, registered in a, so to speak, archive-like mass. Like in a TV film: In the Beyond they can now see how Caesar got to England. And they all see it identically, that is a fact, it is put on record. From this the deceased can learn the history of mankind like no historian was able to describe it.
H They cannot only go back in time, but can go ahead as well. Your interlocutors have precognitive abilities, they could tell you your future and give your date of death?
J They could, but the future is a notion difficult to define, it is not always definitely fixed. There always is a small free point, a bifurcation: It may be like this, it may be like that, and it depends on us what we do in the presence. Specific things of the future are fixed, are already here, today. But we do not yet live them.
back to TOP
H What do your friends tell you about how they feel in the Beyond?
J The conditions in the Beyond are so different, so distinct from our level of life that, if the deceased would wish to describe them, we would not be able to understand it, because there is nothing similar on our earth with what we could compare it for arriving at comprehension.
H Are the humans happier in the Beyond?
J To a hundred percent. Why? In the Beyond the supply of energy to all life proceeds in a manner completely different from over here. If we could look into the Beyond we would see there is not any bank, not any fighting in economy, no titles, no men having to elbow themselves through, and there is nobody who has to kill the other, no animal that has to kill the other, no need for nature to nourish itself at the cost of the others. This is a revolution. There is an energy supply Ė if I could say so Ė electronical, this perhaps is a silly word, but it functions on an absolutely different way, without death, without fighting. Thatís what is fine, there you can acquire quite different goals of life, your energy, your wish, your joy/pleasure, your lifeís existence are no longer downtrodden by burden(s).
H Is that valid for all deceased, for a Mahatma GHANDI in the same way as for an Adolf HITLER? Is there something like an honouring, heaven, is there something like a punishment, a hell?
J Know, there are hells for us on earth. With us on the earth is the hell, which men themselves cook up, in concentration camps, in wars, in family quarrels, in misery and conflicts.
H Good and bad belong to our earthly conceptions. If we all have an unworried future in a Beyond, if, anywhen, we (all) get the same recompense, why then is it worth to be good on this earth?
J With this you come to an important central issue. How did Adolf HITLER take his rise, and how did Mahatma GHANDI take his rise? All these so-called great criminals are the result of you and of me. We have built up this world. We are the world, and the world are we. A HITLER could never have been borne such as he is, if the world had not been as it was. And there is one who is borne into it for taking upon him the poison like a poisonous fungus. He is the result of the mankind around him. Therefore no sinner exists who is sinner only. This all is the structure of our by men produced mendacious and corrupt society.
H Nevertheless I find great difficulty in believing HITLER to have been a victim.
J He is the victim as well, I know from my friend Felix KERSTEN, who had been HIMMLERís masseur and knew the dossiers, that HITLER had syphilis to a severe degree. LENIN, too, had syphilis. A sick person shall be hospitalized and not govern a people. This is the tragedy again of this reciprocal effect.
H As a philosopher you would consequently say that even a criminal is worthy of mercy in the Beyond, and that man comes into the world in genuineness?
J He also brings already something with him. He surely does not come here for the first time. How can a MOZART, a seven years old child, write symphonies, he must have had previous experience/educational background. In this respect men do not come as a blank sheet of paper, but the sheet is white.
H Then, is there nowhere an outset and nowhere and end of men? Is it a continuous development? Isnít there a goal anywhere?
J No, look, a goal is a limitation, a boundedness. That what is infinite, is continuously new. What is completed is finito, there is nothing more. We cannot comprehend it because our brain is restricted.
H Here you claim for us men something that, according to the traditional church doctrine, exclusively God is entitled to, that he is endless. One then could say we all are God?
J We have created God according to our image, a cruel, a vengeful, atrocious God. Such a thing does not exist. It is we humans who have projected him out of our viewpoint. This is a limitation of our mind. We all are life. Life is greater than a human limited word God, life is everything.
H You mean that no superordinate hierarchy exists?
J Then you are again at STALIN and at HITLER, and with the Popes, and everywhere where everything is based on classes, on power. But a flowerís life is as holy as is the life within you.
H Don't you have an ardent interest in crossing the threshold as soon as possible? Isnít there something like a longing for death?
J No, as long as I live and enjoy good health, I have tasks like all men. These tasks fill me with pleasure, with creative pleasure, and why should I leave this reality when there is a beautiful life after death? That will come; death is the only certainty that exists. It may be relied on quite tranquilly, without being insured.
back to TOP
H But the message well is: People, it goes on, we are not dead, we are just different. Unstable persons could have the idea why do I drag myself along over here with my worries, through a life that properly does not please me, - and the danger is that they simply make away with themselves, like recently Mr. KOESTLER, the great parapsychologist.
J He was seriously ill. He suffered from leukaemia.
H Is a serious illness, or an ordeal/visitation, a hard destiny, an excusable reason for suicide?
J It makes an essential difference whether one flees from life, or whether one continues oneís path, the task one has to the end, a natural end. If one takes oneís own life for fleeing, then we postpone the whole. We will return to the same situation with a loss of time.
H But you mean a flight from illness, from suffering would be excusable?
J If there is the hope to save, one shall work. But if one is hopeless, it is understandable that it is not worthwhile to continue suffering, then it is right that one wishes to die. Absolutely. If you have terrible pain, and the doctors prolong your pains, thatís cruel. And that is the only fear that all men can/may have, and this is justified. But this also depends on the life, how we live.
H There is the natural death of people who have become old, have filled their life, and the death of children, for example. And this death one will not be able to discuss away by using oneís brain.
J Look, this is a horrible experience when a young life, in the flower of its age, a tender shoot, is broken off Ė for the parents, not for the tender shoot. For the parents this is hard. But the children go into/arrive in a community. In my large archive I have voices of many, many children who sing marvellous, who are cheerful, fresh young beings. They have tasks (to fulfill), and they are much more respected than over here. We parents often look down onto the children, we are the big ones, they are the small ones, the stupid ones. Over there such sort of thing does not exist.
H So you are of the opinion that deceased children are happy children?
J Most positively, I can guarantee this to you with my full conscience and all my work. I have recordings, if you would hear these. So, you donít know to what the (frolicsome) children are up to there, how they play, they romp, they are gay. But they also accomplish/manage things. They are in an other mental state than on earth, after all, not curbed by (the) school, by their companions, by us men, by the parents. The whole psyche changes there, becomes free. A child is as adult as an adult, if one may say so. Look, the dead are Ė do you know what they are Ė adult children.
H Let us build an edifice of ideas. Of us two you are the one who knows more; and I now imagine to die the day after tomorrow from a coronary infarcation. What will happen to me?
J I would not philosophize now, and not speculate, and not frame hypotheses, but would like to speak of what I have heard from the tape, and what can be exactly heard by everyone.
Look, a man like you and me, we have our five senses, but there exist supersensuous possibilities of existence that our five senses cannot grasp. Already now you have an other body, an etheric (one), just said as a word, that you cannot become aware of. This body is there, throughout your whole life. When dying the physical body makes its last exit, the etherical body is intact. Therein is your consciousness, wakeful, it lives it like you live your body here. After your death you come into an existence, onto a life level that is absolutely realistic for your corresponding senses, that are sharper there. You see, let us say, a landscape where all men see the same landscape, it is no imaginative faculty of your mind, your fancy, your wishes. And there, when you are awake, you come into a community of friends, acquaintances, unknown (beings) who all live within the same vibration, and you become registered in a new life dimension, and start a new beginning. There may be difficulties till you will have taken your old conceptions off the repertoire, but that only depends on the (degree of) wakefulness.
Those sleeping do not notice anything. There are men who, after death, sleep and dream, they go to the office, they have their family, they see the sky with the clouds, there is JESUS, and they play the harp, within their mind pictures, in a visionary, imaginary Fata Morgana.
H Which is left off in the course of time?
J Gradually, but not by all men, most of them sleep. For a 90 percent of the humans in this world are ignorants struck with blindness, otherwise they would not, since a thousand years, help the potentates in instigating wars and misery.
H You want to say that most of the men having lived before us actually did not fill this life with life, they have vegetated. They have lived without thinking, and such men, when they die, would sleep all the time till they are reincarnated in order to learn?
J Exactly. Life is infinite continuation, infinite renewal. If men do not learn their lifeís task that they have here in this world, into which we have been borne, but pass by it in blindness, then they live in a pseudo world, within their own imaginary dream world.
H You said one needs enthusiasm, one shall enjoy life, and that certainly is a quite legitimate intention of men.
J Absolutely, look, without enjoying it life is dismal, deplorable, because, indeed, and we must say it again and again, we have to fill this world here, the now with life, with our thoughts, with our laughing, with our pleasure, and also with our mourning/sadness, with all our activities.
H My best thanks to you, Mr. JUERGENSON.
back to TOP July 2006
You are visiting our website: Wrld ITC.org To reach our homepage click here please.